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Injury levels ... 
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Post Injury levels ...
Following on from serious injury to young player Ezeala reported in the 'Brutal Boxing Day ' thread, today's press have published the following ...

Specialist neurologist expects incidents of ko's to lead to neuro conditions like Parkinsons and other problems to result from typical rugby injuries. These are currently undetectable until they surface.

The report also details of TOP14 (364 games + play offs/Season) increased injury levels ..

2012-13 to 2016-17 'significant injuries' (category not described) rose from 466 to 867 +86%

Confirmed Concussions from 53 to to 102 55% increase.

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:41 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc


I suspect that it is very difficult and even more difficult to treat.... the game has evolved quickly and pretty well unresearched.

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:52 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
CymraegJanner wrote:

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.


and use of supplements and whatever that promote it?

The change in physique of some players has been significant.

Today Te'o(eng), Ringrose (ire) out for early 6Ns and Lydiate out for the Season

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:20 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.

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Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:51 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.


That seems the right tack to me BS

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:40 am
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Inevitable debate has followed the awful injury to 18 year old Ezeala which I consider +ve.

The players union has questioned why such a young inexperienced team was fielded and reponse has shown that they weren't just 'thrown in' but had been prepared for Top14 and were part of that squad in training etc. Whether the extent of the young players was sensible is a moot point but regs that insist on schedule and exceptional injury list did apply.

A better point, imo, raised has been whether top pro rugby should be restricted to a higher age group.

The 'accident' in point supports the issue? Both Ezeala and Vakatawa have the same 'size' ie about 1,87 and 95 kilos ... however the physique difference was huge ... Vakatawa was all muscle and force in comparison (see Blindside's point above) . The real issue was Ezeala got it wrong in the tackle but he would've been bounced anyway ... Vakatawa was set on it ...it's part of his game speed and power.

'Could or should an 18 year old play Top Rugby?'

https://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Article/Pe ... ans/865392

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:57 am
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.

Are you just saying they are becoming really rather extraordinary physical specimens? or are you insinuating more?

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.

Are you just saying they are becoming really rather extraordinary physical specimens? or are you insinuating more?




I think there's a big poblem. There are numerous indicators in my opinion. I cant believe it is "club sponsored" I can believe it is ignored by the employer. I do believe that the tests are relatively easy to get past with professional guidance, but where are they accessing the expert advice to the extent that no professionals are testing positive.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
I was reading about this stuff they use as part of their training. Not sure how good it is for them or if it may be part of the problem.

It is given to Animals and injected into meat to make it juicy etc. Beef cattle consume huge amounts of it before they are sent to the butcher.
It is a long time stand by for boxers and jockeys if they need to meet a weight requirement and they often suffer for it.

It is called Di-hidrogenmonoxide.

There have been studies of players having nasty incidents, and in every case where they were asked, they had recently had contact with DHMO. It was almost banned in Los Angeles a few years back when it was discovered it was being used in school gyms for cleaning purposes and a set of protest partitions went around and got several thousand signatures and 'mothers' turned up en-mass at the school governors meeting, but it was quenched as it would be too expensive to use anything instead.


There are hundreds of instances every year where sports people have had contact with this DHMO and been out of action for long periods.
Skiers, skaters and swimmers seem to suffer most, but just about every athlete now uses it as part of the training regime.

Anyone who is unsure of this substance should take a few seconds to google it, you will be astounded.






here is a fact sheet on it. some of the problems include


Dihydrogen Monoxide Dihydrogen Monoxide - DHMO.org Support the Cause!

FAQs

What is Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Why haven't I heard about Dihydrogen Monoxide before?
What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
What are some uses of Dihydrogen Monoxide?
What is the link between Dihydrogen Monoxide and gun violence?
How does Dihydrogen Monoxide toxicity affect kidney dialysis patients?
Are there groups that oppose a ban on Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Has the press ignored this web site and the Dihydrogen Monoxide problem?
Is it true that using DHMO improves athletic performance?
Can using Dihydrogen Monoxide improve my marriage?
What are the symptoms of accidental Dihydrogen Monoxide overdose?
What is a chemical analysis of Dihydrogen Monoxide
What can I do to minimize the risks?
How can I find out more about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Dihydrogen Monoxide FAQ


Frequently Asked Questions About Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)

What is Dihydrogen Monoxide?

Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.
For more detailed information, including precautions, disposal procedures and storage requirements, refer to one of the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) available for DHMO:

Kemp Compliance & Safety MSDS for DHMO
Chem-Safe, Inc. MSDS for Dihydrogen Monoxide
Applied Petrochemical Research MSDS for Hydric Acid
Original DHMO.org Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Dihydrogen Monoxide (html)
Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?

Yes, you should be concerned about DHMO! Although the U.S. Government and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) do not classify Dihydrogen Monoxide as a toxic or carcinogenic substance (as it does with better known chemicals such as hydrochloric acid and benzene), DHMO is a constituent of many known toxic substances, diseases and disease-causing agents, environmental hazards and can even be lethal to humans in quantities as small as a thimbleful.
Research conducted by award-winning U.S. scientist Nathan Zohner concluded that roughly 86 percent of the population supports a ban on dihydrogen monoxide. Although his results are preliminary, Zohner believes people need to pay closer attention to the information presented to them regarding Dihydrogen Monoxide. He adds that if more people knew the truth about DHMO then studies like the one he conducted would not be necessary.
A similar study conducted by U.S. researchers Patrick K. McCluskey and Matthew Kulick also found that nearly 90 percent of the citizens participating in their study were willing to sign a petition to support an outright ban on the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide in the United States.

Why haven't I heard about Dihydrogen Monoxide before?

Good question. Historically, the dangers of DHMO, for the most part, have been considered minor and manageable. While the more significant dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide are currently addressed by a number of agencies including FDA, FEMA and CDC, public awareness of the real and daily dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide is lower than some think it should be.
Critics of government often cite the fact that many politicians and others in public office do not consider Dihydrogen Monoxide to be a "politically beneficial" cause to get behind, and so the public suffers from a lack of reliable information on just what DHMO is and why they should be concerned. Part of the blame lies with the public and society at large. Many do not take the time to understand Dihydrogen Monoxide, and what it means to their lives and the lives of their families.
Unfortunately, the dangers of DHMO have increased as world population has increased, a fact that the raw numbers and careful research both bear out. Now more than ever, it is important to be aware of just what the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide are and how we can all reduce the risks faced by ourselves and our families.

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?

Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.

Are you just saying they are becoming really rather extraordinary physical specimens? or are you insinuating more?




I think there's a big poblem. There are numerous indicators in my opinion. I cant believe it is "club sponsored" I can believe it is ignored by the employer. I do believe that the tests are relatively easy to get past with professional guidance, but where are they accessing the expert advice to the extent that no professionals are testing positive.

We've had this discussion before!
Still not convinced at the top level there is anything to find.
Development levels, English Championship, Welsh prem and below, I agree there is.

I've told my story of a famous English fly half I played against as a junior numerous times.

The amount of money spent on physical conditioning for pro rugby players at the top level it's astonishing. It's the biggest defining factor about a rugby player in the current environment. That's a still a lot we don't know about how the body reacts to certain methods of prolonged training.

The kids coming out of schools now are incredible physical specimens now, that's as a kid. When they are paid shed loads to train to an elite level of fitness with an elite level of strength 7 days a week, I'm saying that known boundaries are being pushed.

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Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:51 pm
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
CymraegJanner wrote:
Blindside wrote:
I would have thought some of the reason for that is the awareness of concussion protocol and implementation. But dont know.

Question i suppose is what is causing it, increase in size? Rules of the game? Both? etc

I'm with you on that, awareness, precaution, and protocol implementation are I would think mostly to blame for the huge rise.

I'd think that concussion and neurological injuries are on the rise in line with other injuries from playing (which are all on the rise.)

I'd say that's to do with the strive to be bigger, stronger, faster, fitter.




Rugby players are exceeding the genetic potential of clean bodybuilders by some distance for lean muscle mass, taking into account the average body fat of a rugby player is around 13% (between 8-17%) taking into account they get injuries and cant do weights in the dedicated way that bodybuilders do, due to the fitness demands of the game. Its a puzzle.

Are you just saying they are becoming really rather extraordinary physical specimens? or are you insinuating more?




I think there's a big poblem. There are numerous indicators in my opinion. I cant believe it is "club sponsored" I can believe it is ignored by the employer. I do believe that the tests are relatively easy to get past with professional guidance, but where are they accessing the expert advice to the extent that no professionals are testing positive.

We've had this discussion before!
Still not convinced at the top level there is anything to find.
Development levels, English Championship, Welsh prem and below, I agree there is.

I've told my story of a famous English fly half I played against as a junior numerous times.

The amount of money spent on physical conditioning for pro rugby players at the top level it's astonishing. It's the biggest defining factor about a rugby player in the current environment. That's a still a lot we don't know about how the body reacts to certain methods of prolonged training.

The kids coming out of schools now are incredible physical specimens now, that's as a kid. When they are paid shed loads to train to an elite level of fitness with an elite level of strength 7 days a week, I'm saying that known boundaries are being pushed.



Yes possibly your right, i talked to a guy this week whose son was brought into the Ospreys academy a year early, i think hes nearly 15, the first thing they do his weigh him. Another parent told me their son had to fill in a form saying how tall his mother and father was. For me its a scandal because the pressures on those kids to get bigger and stronger are huge, i do not believe that such pressures do not create alternate routes.

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Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:17 am
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Young, excellent players already capped and established are having significant injuries early....

Cue the likes of Ringrose ....had a shoulder (?) not long back ... now I think that he's out again for early 6Ns.

Iturria a young established french second row, ..long term shoulder injury and has had some HIAs ...

Young Osps winger (can't remember his name ) out long term..

and so on ...

It has been known for some time that finely tuned athletes are more vulnerable to injury and illness e.g glandular fever and in Rugby's case we now add impact injuries on a significant scale and more highly tuned presence.The American Football example is well known and although heavy protection is employed that brings its own problems too. Boxing and head injuries goes without saying and there are other sports with their unique problems too.

However Rugby's increasing multiple vulnerability is, imo, begining to enter a somewhat unique combination of health and injury concerns and younger, less experienced and prepared players increasingly exposed.

I don't think it is extreme to label it increasingly dangerous and vulnerable.

Parents will soon be increasingly wary of allowing youngsters to compete and that will soon create elitism at the expense of enjoyment.

The burgeoning women's game and different physiological aspects have yet to be really considered.

In summary a potential nightmare?

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Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:53 am
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Post Re: Injury levels ...
The worst case I've seen was George North getting kicked in the head. Welcome to English rugby.

The second worst - potentially - was Shane Williams getting tackled by two Australians simultaneously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZorqMzWgAc&version=3&hl=en%5FGB&rel=0&showinfo=0

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Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:41 pm
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