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Progress in Welsh Rugby ??? 
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
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Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:51 am
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
LLanrumneyOik wrote:
Blindside wrote:
i fail to see how the standard will improve, as 4 teams have been created at under 23 level, many of them would have been playing in the Premiership.
.



A long time ago I suggested that below the regions should be something akin to American college Football where young teams fought it out for the best.

I was pilloried because ancient forwards with more brawn than brains would crucify the kids.

Clearly leaving the over 28's out of the loop was a bad move for acceptance of common sense.

If you want the game to improve you have to work on the game, not the social context that asserts an old dog must have its day.

Then perhaps a concept of 'form', an ability to repeat performance to the same degree without being wasted by village celebration, might take hold.

The fundemental problem in Welsh Rugby is its lack of form .. every mistake is forgiven after a few beers ..


Would the 'fighting it out for the best' work? Let's say a decent lad from Holyhead got selected at say 17 or 18 for the Dragons. It's a long way and presumably not a lot of money. At that age, there is every chance he would have to move house, and likely quit school. The money for young players would have to go up massively for relocation costs and accomodation.

The idea is surely, to build up beneath the regions and then ensure that the quality they get is the best.


Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:16 am
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
jimcardiff wrote:
This is all about the region's having it all, the prem was always weaker than it.Should have been ,Ponty bucked the trend and attracted reasonable crowds, the Ebbw Vale hit the Prem with a good following and RGC hit the prem their good support , so time to screw around with the prem to make sure any one prepared to pay to watch rugby only has a choice of the favoured 4 and no one else, the prem teams should form a group and negotiate a.tv deal and find a sponsored on their own , they won't as the wruin and the Oliver's will make sure they are not able to match the pay that will be offered to the under 23s


This post sort of sums up my competing objectives post really

I don’t disagree and have been delighted with the progress of Ebbw Vale

But how do you create a system which serves the professional game and the national team when the club in wales is still so important. Not enough money to do it all unfortunately

The ambition of beefing up up the prem as a gateway to pro rugby has failed... and was pie in the sky anyway

Can we let premiership clubs go to wall to free up resources for a fully pro set up at youth level... culturally and historically no chance


Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
why should rugby in Wales be run to support the pro teams , when they Want Wales to be run to suit them.
The beefing up of the prem was never done , never left alone long enough to improve itself.
So as a result destroy the club game to leave the four fails as the only option , were we coming to the end of first class rugby in Wales ,I really am afraid of this happening.

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Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:24 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
jimcardiff wrote:
why should rugby in Wales be run to support the pro teams , when they Want Wales to be run to suit them.
The beefing up of the prem was never done , never left alone long enough to improve itself.
So as a result destroy the club game to leave the four fails as the only option , were we coming to the end of first class rugby in Wales ,I really am afraid of this happening.



If the purpose of the Premiership clubs is no longer to be a link to professionalism why should the Premiership clubs be subsidized to pay players that they take from other teams, who have junior sections? Shouldnt the money go to the clubs with junior sections who still have a link with the Pyramid.

Who was the Premiership going to improve if it was "left alone", if it was left alone it would have been ring-fenced forever and a day. Define "first-class rugby"?

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:43 am
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
Blindside wrote:
eog wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Different colour paint eh ;)

But I must say that the concept of streamlining and reshaping the executive and trying to adapt it to better fit Pro Rugby does look like a sensible step ahead (see post(s) above). I'm surprised that the turkeys voted for it.
Of course we've yet to see what this significant move will entail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43577111

There are basically two ways for the executive of the WRU to function.
The England/France type way.
Where because there are so many players and professional clubs it doesn't really matter that much whether the part of the executive whose priority is the long term success of the national game or the part of the executive whose priority is the short term success of the professional club game has the upper hand.
The SH/Ireland type way
Where because playing and/or financial resources are limited it matters that the part of the executive whose priority is the long term success of the national game have the upper hand.

However in our wisdom although we're a type two rugby country we insist on having a type one executive.



Yes, good points well made.

From my point of view, the changes are somewhat irrelevant, i do not believe we have the quality of under 23 people available to make up four squads, especially as the ones good enough to play regional rugby will be playing it. In all likelihood, the strength of the teams will be below the strength of The Premiership, which is low, indeed the Premiership is a reflection of the best of the amateur game not the worst of the professional one. There is no attempt to broach that. I do not believe that the structure at the stage it is introduced will significantly change the end result, for the regions or team Wales in terms of player quality.

As for the Premiership, their lack of foresight made them an irrelevance to everything other than themselves. It is a vain parody of a bygone age. The links to the professional game are almost non-existent other than for the occasional game for a young professional stepping down, nothing is stepping up. The Premiership could collapse and payment at that level completely stop and it would make not a jot of difference to the "community game".

Yip I agree with that.

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:38 am
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
Blindside wrote:
jimcardiff wrote:
why should rugby in Wales be run to support the pro teams , when they Want Wales to be run to suit them.
The beefing up of the prem was never done , never left alone long enough to improve itself.
So as a result destroy the club game to leave the four fails as the only option , were we coming to the end of first class rugby in Wales ,I really am afraid of this happening.



If the purpose of the Premiership clubs is no longer to be a link to professionalism why should the Premiership clubs be subsidized to pay players that they take from other teams, who have junior sections? Shouldnt the money go to the clubs with junior sections who still have a link with the Pyramid.

Who was the Premiership going to improve if it was "left alone", if it was left alone it would have been ring-fenced forever and a day. Define "first-class rugby"?

Excellent points. :thumbright:

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:39 am
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
The prem was the top domestic comp in Welsh rugby 1 step down from the failing 4 , there should have been a way to the top level but that would not suit the 4 might make them Have to perform on the field ,
If left as it was not ringfenced (relegation makes a League stronger)
It would have grown stronger just because the dross would have gone down , the region's stopped that happening , keep it weak was their motto.
It could have been used to bring on pro players but no .
Some of the club's in the Prem are founder members of the WRU but are left out of important decision making as they are not the ones living in comfy corner on easy street.

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
The prem was the top domestic comp in Welsh rugby 1 step down from the failing 4 , there should have been a way to the top level but that would not suit the 4 might make them Have to perform on the field ,
If left as it was not ringfenced (relegation makes a League stronger)
It would have grown stronger just because the dross would have gone down , the region's stopped that happening , keep it weak was their motto.
It could have been used to bring on pro players but no .
Some of the club's in the Prem are founder members of the WRU but are left out of important decision making as they are not the ones living in comfy corner on easy street.

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:26 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
jimcardiff wrote:
The prem was the top domestic comp in Welsh rugby 1 step down from the failing 4 , there should have been a way to the top level but that would not suit the 4 might make them Have to perform on the field ,
If left as it was not ringfenced (relegation makes a League stronger)
It would have grown stronger just because the dross would have gone down , the region's stopped that happening , keep it weak was their motto.
It could have been used to bring on pro players but no .
Some of the club's in the Prem are founder members of the WRU but are left out of important decision making as they are not the ones living in comfy corner on easy street.


Why would a ringfenced Premiership be better than ringfenced regions?

One of the problems that the Premiership faces is that it is not and can never be the best rugby in Wales. As a fairly nautral regional fan, why would I follow say Cardif RFC over the Blues?

I don't believe that the Regions have concsiously kept the semi-pro game weak. It is in their best interests to have clubs producing players that can become regional.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
I think the idea was the ringfencing would give teams security, and ability to plan effectively, to drive up standards. Taking away the threat of relegation also allows more younger players to be introduced.

It was a way of having it all... a vibrant club scene feeding into the regional game

However the recent review basically says the semi pro environment (eg training twice a week) is not really conducive to player development, so that pro youth structure has to come from the regions ie the under 23 sides

I see no serious reason why the wru can benefit from having a weak premiership


Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
Any players that show any promise are hoovered up by the regional academies long before they play in the premiership. The premiership, instead of feeding players to the regions, gets players from the regions to 'give game time' to.
That being said, I think this is the latest in the line of super club demands being met. They will no longer even have to play lip service to being 'regions', if their development is being officially done in house, and paid for at the expense of the prem clubs. A weaker premiership definitely gives increased might to the foursome.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think it is very short sighted to not have an u23 academy side based up north. The Gog region has been about development since day one, and their reward is a slash in funding, so even more cash can be thrown at the southern big boys. Thanks for that, Mr Davies.

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:27 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
The problems of regions, prem clubs, and the other wanna be prem clubs and now U23 sides is that there are too few players with sufficiently high skills to sustain them all.
No amount of tinkering with league formats will solve that.

Really the WRU's strategy should be to address the player base quantity and quality as the priority and ensure that every level in the rugby pyramid underpins that. That's going to difficult but probably not as difficult as trying to design and run a prem that's acceptable to all.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:07 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
A key is to ensure the transition of players from Prem to Regional is kept to a minimum, by ensuring that all players not getting game time for the regions play a certain number of games for a club. Push the quality down the leagues.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:44 pm
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Post Re: Progress in Welsh Rugby ???
Cymru am byth wrote:
Would the 'fighting it out for the best' work? Let's say a decent lad from Holyhead got selected at say 17 or 18 for the Dragons. It's a long way and presumably not a lot of money. At that age, there is every chance he would have to move house, and likely quit school. The money for young players would have to go up massively for relocation costs and accomodation.

The idea is surely, to build up beneath the regions and then ensure that the quality they get is the best.


I agree with you last sentence. I don't see what Hollyhead and the dragons have to do with it though.

In my mind I am seeing teams of under 25's playing regularly and representing their local people in Rugby as a Sport not a culture. Let the old buggars beat each other up and get pissed and kiss better friends than ever on the other pitch.

It is those old sods in the way that prevents development.


Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:02 pm
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