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60 Cap Rule Announced 
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Post 60 Cap Rule Announced
I see that this has been announced by Martyn Philips today, (his first act in 9 months), so that leaves Webb on the outside (only 28 caps).

Webb seems to be the major casualty, as Biggar will get to 60 by next season, barring injury.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41547139

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:28 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Langland Exile wrote:
I see that this has been announced by Martyn Philips today, (his first act in 9 months), so that leaves Webb on the outside (only 28 caps).

Webb seems to be the major casualty, as Biggar will get to 60 by next season, barring injury.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41547139


What version is this XX?

Perm any x from Y just like the old Vernons Pools! :D

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:31 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
I see that this has been announced by Martyn Philips today, (his first act in 9 months), so that leaves Webb on the outside (only 28 caps).

Webb seems to be the major casualty, as Biggar will get to 60 by next season, barring injury.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41547139


What version is this XX?

Perm any x from Y just like the old Vernons Pools! :D


I suspect that the WRU may have less cash moving forward, but no debt payments. Tricky times for them as the regional owners, (other than the Scarlets), seem to have lost their wallets.

It may force more mediocrity, unless the NDC structure changes.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Who came up with this idea? Why 60 caps? Presumably because it covers the vast majority.

I would imagine that Webb would have grounds for legal action here as he is clearly being discriminated against. He cannot now change his contract next year so this should only apply to new contracts agreed from the day this was announced.

Amateuristic from Phillips, no surprise there!

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:05 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Andrew (Scum V) wrote:
Who came up with this idea? Why 60 caps? Presumably because it covers the vast majority.

I would imagine that Webb would have grounds for legal action here as he is clearly being discriminated against. He cannot now change his contract next year so this should only apply to new contracts agreed from the day this was announced.

Amateuristic from Phillips, no surprise there!


In my opinion a big problem is that with increasing evidence of early serious injury more of the 'senior', but not ott, Welsh internationals are likely, and understandably, going to take an earlier ensure-their-future option.

This just rapes the National team of that variety doesn't it? :scratch:

Reduce the # REgions fund decent NWQ and let Welsh Players migrate.

Article 9 will protect but there is a risk of players even taking an extreme no Wales representation option.

Tis Pro Rugby 'tis today!

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:35 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Cautiously welcome this as the current system is clearly ridiculous, the whole "no concrete offer on the table" loophole that allowed Tom Francis and Luke Charteris to re-sign and escape the axe was just ridiculous, such a fudge. The only player who has ever clearly fallen foul of the law was Rhys Priestland, and in a period when he clearly wasn't the first choice anyway. It obviously wasn't putting anyone off cf. Webb and Biggar leaving.

Re: Webb, it seems to me that the situation hinges on what the nature of the agreement he has with Toulon, if any such agreement exists. If the contract has already been signed, then it was signed before Monday 16th October 2017 and therefore surely he should be allowed to honour it in the same way that the likes of Moriarty, Francis, etc. are being allowed to see out their current contracts with their clubs. On the other hand, if, as Gatland seems to be suggesting, Webb hasn't signed anything binding then he isn't obliged to leave and can choose to stay, if he wishes.

(worth noting that Francis and Moriarty will not be able to reach 60 caps in time for their current contracts, so will have to "come home" - ironically of course both of them are English born and have never played for a Welsh region anyway, but that's a different matter).

It's both a tightening and a loosening of the rules. Jake Ball, Moriarty, Francis, will want to stay in/move to Wales, and are more likely to do so than they would under the current system. But now Faletau and North have no reason to come home, and Alun Wyn Jones has no reason to stay.


Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:49 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Figaro wrote:
Cautiously welcome this as the current system is clearly ridiculous, the whole "no concrete offer on the table" loophole that allowed Tom Francis and Luke Charteris to re-sign and escape the axe was just ridiculous, such a fudge. The only player who has ever clearly fallen foul of the law was Rhys Priestland, and in a period when he clearly wasn't the first choice anyway. It obviously wasn't putting anyone off cf. Webb and Biggar leaving.

Re: Webb, it seems to me that the situation hinges on what the nature of the agreement he has with Toulon, if any such agreement exists. If the contract has already been signed, then it was signed before Monday 16th October 2017 and therefore surely he should be allowed to honour it in the same way that the likes of Moriarty, Francis, etc. are being allowed to see out their current contracts with their clubs. On the other hand, if, as Gatland seems to be suggesting, Webb hasn't signed anything binding then he isn't obliged to leave and can choose to stay, if he wishes.

(worth noting that Francis and Moriarty will not be able to reach 60 caps in time for their current contracts, so will have to "come home" - ironically of course both of them are English born and have never played for a Welsh region anyway, but that's a different matter).

It's both a tightening and a loosening of the rules. Jake Ball, Moriarty, Francis, will want to stay in/move to Wales, and are more likely to do so than they would under the current system. But now Faletau and North have no reason to come home, and Alun Wyn Jones has no reason to stay.


Copied the Aussie model..

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:17 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
I agree with Figaro here. I would also add that it should have been introduced earlier, and would have prevented e.g. Liam Williams from leaving. It is far more straightforward, and a far more decent compromise, than "Gatland's Law" in its current guise has been. As an aside, the notion that the standard of rugby is far higher in England and France than in Wales (or possibly the Pro 14 more generally) is utterly specious and preposterous. If the English and French clubs and structures were so wonderful, then why have France and pre-Eddie Jones England been so mediocre for so many years? How is it that the players produced by Leinster, Munster, Ulster and, yes, Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff Blues have regularly beaten over the years the players produced by Saracens, Harlequins, Wasps, Bath, Racing 92, Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont, both at international level and to a lesser extent at club level?


Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:27 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Langland Exile wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Cautiously welcome this as the current system is clearly ridiculous, the whole "no concrete offer on the table" loophole that allowed Tom Francis and Luke Charteris to re-sign and escape the axe was just ridiculous, such a fudge. The only player who has ever clearly fallen foul of the law was Rhys Priestland, and in a period when he clearly wasn't the first choice anyway. It obviously wasn't putting anyone off cf. Webb and Biggar leaving.

Re: Webb, it seems to me that the situation hinges on what the nature of the agreement he has with Toulon, if any such agreement exists. If the contract has already been signed, then it was signed before Monday 16th October 2017 and therefore surely he should be allowed to honour it in the same way that the likes of Moriarty, Francis, etc. are being allowed to see out their current contracts with their clubs. On the other hand, if, as Gatland seems to be suggesting, Webb hasn't signed anything binding then he isn't obliged to leave and can choose to stay, if he wishes.

(worth noting that Francis and Moriarty will not be able to reach 60 caps in time for their current contracts, so will have to "come home" - ironically of course both of them are English born and have never played for a Welsh region anyway, but that's a different matter).

It's both a tightening and a loosening of the rules. Jake Ball, Moriarty, Francis, will want to stay in/move to Wales, and are more likely to do so than they would under the current system. But now Faletau and North have no reason to come home, and Alun Wyn Jones has no reason to stay.


Copied the Aussie model..


Which is a good compromise, as neither Wales nor, for that matter, Australia have the strength-in-depth to have a total ban on exile players as NZ do.


Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:28 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Why have any constraint at all let foreign clubs finance the Welsh team .

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:42 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Very unfair on the players, imo. If the regions were all conquering and wealthy enough to pay competitive wages, then it would be okay, but being told you either have to stay at the Dragons or abandon your international career is like being forced to sit in soiled underwear indefinitely.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:55 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
najbritcol wrote:
I agree with Figaro here. I would also add that it should have been introduced earlier, and would have prevented e.g. Liam Williams from leaving.

Maybe he'd have gone anyway? It's pretty appealing the other side of the bridge.... financially and silverware wise

It is far more straightforward, and a far more decent compromise, than "Gatland's Law" in its current guise has been.

There have been multiple Gatlands so called laws?
I wonder how long this one will last?


As an aside, the notion that the standard of rugby is far higher in England and France than in Wales (or possibly the Pro 14 more generally) is utterly specious and preposterous.

Depends discuss later.


If the English and French clubs and structures were so wonderful, then why have France and pre-Eddie Jones England been so mediocre for so many years?

I'd put Eddie Jones's England as one of the favs for next W Cup.


How is it that the players produced by Leinster, Munster, Ulster and, yes, Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff Blues have regularly beaten over the years the players produced by Saracens, Harlequins, Wasps, Bath, Racing 92, Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont, both at international level and to a lesser extent at club level?


Somewhat true at International level although I think the point v Eng is contentious.

Certainly true wrt France although it could change.

Now consider rugby in its entirety .... .. the Blue Ribbon Euro competition has a significant absence of merit from Sco and Wales since conception. Talk me through their finalists, leave alone winners.....

Ireland have been successful but not for some time. They are still up there though and Leinster look good currently.

Eng and France have largely dominated.

Foreigners are present but the Club game in France is dominant and extremely popular. Market forces?

Support and attendance in Pro14 other than Ireland is very poor.

Other than the Scarlets the Welsh Regions are in demise.



Naj

Just a reply to try and even up your analysis

Just to say ...N Hemp does suffer v S Hemp but I feel that that could change except for NZ which seems totally dominant W/wide.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:56 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
jimcardiff wrote:
Why have any constraint at all


Because if you did that, then there is a serious risk that the other three regions would become exactly like the Dragons (before all the haters come in, no they are not) - basically a mixture of crappy foreign journeymen and inexperienced youngsters. If the Ospreys and Scarlets became like the Dragons then the results they'd face against the likes of Clermont and Toulon would be rather worse than five-point and one-point losses.


Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:58 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
najbritcol wrote:
jimcardiff wrote:
Why have any constraint at all


Because if you did that, then there is a serious risk that the other three regions would become exactly like the Dragons (before all the haters come in, no they are not) - basically a mixture of crappy foreign journeymen and inexperienced youngsters. If the Ospreys and Scarlets became like the Dragons then the results they'd face against the likes of Clermont and Toulon would be rather worse than five-point and one-point losses.

You have to look at the bigger picture. Are we prepared to hamstring our international side, which is massively popular and brings in flipping great wodges of cash, for the benefit of the regions, who are not particular popular and skint?

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
The PRW's insistence at the last RSA negotiation on NDC's is the root of all this. Its what they wanted as CC's would have been loss of face, no more no less. So now the WRU have to come up another idea trapping players for them.

Trouble is this measure only traps those who will be regular caps, the Hamiltons and Owen Williams of the world will still be lost and its these week in week out players, that are at the end of the more important will still be lost, they form the spine of the team.

I'm sure they know what their doing

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:11 pm
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