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Dragons in threesome with two Hookers 
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Post Re: Dragons best bet for aspiring young internationals ?
Blindside wrote:
welshy34 wrote:
Blindside wrote:
welshy34 wrote:
Now that the WRU own the Dragons .. would it not be an advantage for younger players to be playing for them ?

If they have international aspirations you could argue that the Dragons are a more direct route ?

Contentious perhaps but, inevitable in a way.




Really depends on the quality of the young player...... many people think we are over run with young talent, perhaps thats why we finished 7th in the WC.

The best environment for a top young player is with experienced battle hardened quality players as it gives them the opportunity to grow and learn. Dragons are made up of never beens and has beens.

What do you mean by "direct rout"? Wales often struggle without the 15 best players on the field so the emergence of political selections would be a spiraling descent into melt down.

Not inevitable in any way shape of form, because the effect on the other regions and their backers would see the already poor fan base greatly depleted and who in their right mind would put money into a region that loses its best players to the WRU run cartel.


Freudian slip - I meant Direct Route but I think you understood what I was implying anyway.

Yes - I'm suggesting that is it absoultely inevitable (over time) that the Dragons will get more attention/focus/investment(facilities/resource/time) form the WRU .
Difficult to know how that will manisfest itself on the pitch performance/results wise but given that this is exactly the intention of the WRU (to invest and improve all aspects) .. THEY at the very least are expecting SOME sort of manifisation.

I'm not talking about political selections for the International side - I'm not quite that cynical.

I'm talking about the inevitable synergy that will emerge from both organisations being owned and invested in by the WRU.
They will look to streamline working practises and cross pollinate.
It's good business.

Aspiring young internationals i.e. Wales U20 players etc will gravitate towards an organisation that will have direct access to WRU resources.
(I accept your point about always needing some quality experience in there)

It's a new world order.



Your new world order seems to rely on the WRU being an example of some higher order, an organization that is excellent at creation and use of resources that only needs the vehicle for its ambition and that vehicle could be the Dragons This may apply in a parallel universe but in my view its bears no relationship to reality.

The evidence for this thinking appears to be that Team Wales as done far better than the regions.... Gatland has been in charge for a decade, the WRU approach to team Wales has been to support WG, its a strategy thats worked to a large extent, what Warren wants Warren gets. However the wider picture is far worse in terms of nearly everything.

As a strategic goal, i see no evidence that the regions feel particularly threatened by the WRU take over, so that makes me come to the conclusion that it is not the intention to attempt to bus in the top stars. Your imagination has run wild because the WRU has taken over but the formula you are using to calculate reality seems deeply flawed to me. My conclusion would be that the eventual outcome of the WRU take over is more lkely to be winding down and extinction. When the almost inevitable decision to cut a region will be made, which region will be most easily cut.
Judging by the lack of quality players not sort for the new Dragons and the coaching staff head hunter from Tesco thirds I can't see a long term future for the Dragons.

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:19 pm
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Post Re: Dragons best bet for aspiring young internationals ?
Blindside wrote:
welshy34 wrote:
Blindside wrote:
welshy34 wrote:
Now that the WRU own the Dragons .. would it not be an advantage for younger players to be playing for them ?

If they have international aspirations you could argue that the Dragons are a more direct route ?

Contentious perhaps but, inevitable in a way.




Really depends on the quality of the young player...... many people think we are over run with young talent, perhaps thats why we finished 7th in the WC.

The best environment for a top young player is with experienced battle hardened quality players as it gives them the opportunity to grow and learn. Dragons are made up of never beens and has beens.

What do you mean by "direct rout"? Wales often struggle without the 15 best players on the field so the emergence of political selections would be a spiraling descent into melt down.

Not inevitable in any way shape of form, because the effect on the other regions and their backers would see the already poor fan base greatly depleted and who in their right mind would put money into a region that loses its best players to the WRU run cartel.


Freudian slip - I meant Direct Route but I think you understood what I was implying anyway.

Yes - I'm suggesting that is it absoultely inevitable (over time) that the Dragons will get more attention/focus/investment(facilities/resource/time) form the WRU .
Difficult to know how that will manisfest itself on the pitch performance/results wise but given that this is exactly the intention of the WRU (to invest and improve all aspects) .. THEY at the very least are expecting SOME sort of manifisation.

I'm not talking about political selections for the International side - I'm not quite that cynical.

I'm talking about the inevitable synergy that will emerge from both organisations being owned and invested in by the WRU.
They will look to streamline working practises and cross pollinate.
It's good business.

Aspiring young internationals i.e. Wales U20 players etc will gravitate towards an organisation that will have direct access to WRU resources.
(I accept your point about always needing some quality experience in there)

It's a new world order.


Interesting points.
Your new world order seems to rely on the WRU being an example of some higher order, an organization that is excellent at creation and use of resources that only needs the vehicle for its ambition and that vehicle could be the Dragons This may apply in a parallel universe but in my view its bears no relationship to reality.
Firstly - they are a higher order - they are at the top of the pyramid - fact.
Whether they are a better run organisation - debatable as many ways to assess - but finances would suggest they are, by some margin.
The Dragons are a vehicle for WRU resources - fact. They have already invested in facilities (the pitch) and made further commitments.
Whether this investment vehicle will bring further success to the Dragons on the pitch or with increased support - no guarantees whatsover - could fall on its face - we will see.
I'm not suggesting it will bring more direct success for Wales. I suspect any possible improvements for Wales in that respect will be indirect and long term.


The evidence for this thinking appears to be that Team Wales as done far better than the regions.... Gatland has been in charge for a decade, the WRU approach to team Wales has been to support WG, its a strategy thats worked to a large extent, what Warren wants Warren gets. However the wider picture is far worse in terms of nearly everything.
I do hate that term Team Wales - very Clive Woodward.
Wales and the regions are not competitors.
They are not in the same market. The regions are feeder franchises that require the WRU to finance them, simply in order to exist.
The WRU could certainly exist without the 3 privately owned feeder franchises. IT chooses not to.
The reverse is not true.


As a strategic goal, i see no evidence that the regions feel particularly threatened by the WRU take over, so that makes me come to the conclusion that it is not the intention to attempt to bus in the top stars. Your imagination has run wild because the WRU has taken over but the formula you are using to calculate reality seems deeply flawed to me. My conclusion would be that the eventual outcome of the WRU take over is more lkely to be winding down and extinction. When the almost inevitable decision to cut a region will be made, which region will be most easily cut.
I'm not sugesting that the WRU have this as a strategic goal.
Currently the strategy includes the 3 private franchises. It makes sense. That may ALWAYS make sense.
What I'm suggesting is that there will inevitably be more sharing between the WRU and the Dragons as there will be more synergy.
Over time, this will create a gravitational pull.
That will have an influence, over time.

It's a small beginning with an enormous long term impact.


In addition - if you think the WRU will invest money and resource into the Dragons with the intention to wind down at ANY time .. you are very much mistaken.



Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Without going through it all again. The "enormous difference" you speak of is impossible to envisage as there is no evidence that WRU can make an enormous difference to anything. Your transformed Dragons is what..... well supported and a force in Europe. What then would be the state of the other 3 regions :scratch: What benefit for the Welsh team if the Dragons strengthen and the others weaken, because it is merely a shift of resources, not a creation. This changes you speak of may change the career path of a handful of Welsh professional players, so what :scratch:

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:26 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But now, like it or like it not, ...3 Regions are Independent businesses, the other is under the auspices of the WRU.

There may be a conflict in interest ... at least it's a tenuous relationship e.g as mentioned above ..EPCR governance gives the PRW 1 vote and the WRU 1 too. What's the position of PRW now with only 3 Regions under their governance?

Anyway, the initial conception of Regions was ill founded and exacted under rancour.

The Dragons position is currently, at least, out on a limb.

and, again as mentioned earlier in the stream, ....what has become of Thomas's proposal that WRU babysit Cardiff rugby whilst the estate development is formalised?

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:23 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
I think the Dragons' immediate aim should be to strive to finish better than third from bottom. One step at a time, innit.

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:24 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Tony Panties wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But now, like it or like it not, ...3 Regions are Independent businesses, the other is under the auspices of the WRU.

There may be a conflict in interest ... at least it's a tenuous relationship e.g as mentioned above ..EPCR governance gives the PRW 1 vote and the WRU 1 too. What's the position of PRW now with only 3 Regions under their governance?

Anyway, the initial conception of Regions was ill founded and exacted under rancour.

The Dragons position is currently, at least, out on a limb.

and, again as mentioned earlier in the stream, ....what has become of Thomas's proposal that WRU babysit Cardiff rugby whilst the estate development is formalised?


I believe it was withdrawn by Cardiff.

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:19 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But surely as one of the four main teams, they should in theory be playing around 1/4 of the best Welsh players.


Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:11 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Langland Exile wrote:

I believe it was withdrawn by Cardiff.


Thomas's bluff called, he caved

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:48 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Cymru am byth wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But surely as one of the four main teams, they should in theory be playing around 1/4 of the best Welsh players.



As a player, i should have the right to sign for a team that meets my needs and aspirations. If i was sought after by a number of clubs, why would i consider signing for them?

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Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Tony Panties wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But now, like it or like it not, ...3 Regions are Independent businesses, the other is under the auspices of the WRU.

There may be a conflict in interest ... at least it's a tenuous relationship e.g as mentioned above ..EPCR governance gives the PRW 1 vote and the WRU 1 too. What's the position of PRW now with only 3 Regions under their governance?

Anyway, the initial conception of Regions was ill founded and exacted under rancour.

The Dragons position is currently, at least, out on a limb.

and, again as mentioned earlier in the stream, ....what has become of Thomas's proposal that WRU babysit Cardiff rugby whilst the estate development is formalised?


Interesting points but I am not advocating wru control of all regions but think dragons should consider moving to supporter ownership. I am a big fan of German football model, see a game for €10, full ground etc. The future for dragons is about community focus

The blues on the other hand are the Capital and have more flexibility in terms of their arrangements


Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:27 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Blindside wrote:
Cymru am byth wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But surely as one of the four main teams, they should in theory be playing around 1/4 of the best Welsh players.



As a player, i should have the right to sign for a team that meets my needs and aspirations. If i was sought after by a number of clubs, why would i consider signing for them?


No player in their right mind would sign for dragons at the moment. Signing discarded props from the blues sums it up really. changeing perceptions is a key role for the wru. First thing they can do is start with an identity now the Newport fiasco is at an end


Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:31 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Cymru am byth wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But surely as one of the four main teams, they should in theory be playing around 1/4 of the best Welsh players.


Except it doesn't work like that, since in Wales - like all countries - some teams are better than others. Connacht supply relatively few players to Ireland; Edinburgh supply far fewer players to Scotland than do Glasgow; teams such as Worcester, Newcastle and Sale supply relatively few players to England. And so on.


Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:44 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
Tony Panties wrote:
AverageBBCjournalist wrote:
The way dragons spoken about in this thread is in the context of the national side and developing players

This is the wrong way forward... gwent has a fine rugby tradition and should be represented regionally with a community focussed, not commercially focussed, organisation. Fact it's in Newport is a kick in the teeth though

The wru has a responsibility to the game in Wales, not just the national side.


But now, like it or like it not, ...3 Regions are Independent businesses, the other is under the auspices of the WRU.

There may be a conflict in interest ... at least it's a tenuous relationship e.g as mentioned above ..EPCR governance gives the PRW 1 vote and the WRU 1 too. What's the position of PRW now with only 3 Regions under their governance?

Anyway, the initial conception of Regions was ill founded and exacted under rancour.

The Dragons position is currently, at least, out on a limb.

and, again as mentioned earlier in the stream, ....what has become of Thomas's proposal that WRU babysit Cardiff rugby whilst the estate development is formalised?


But may soon become part of a trend?
How long will Thomas be willing to keep putting in a reputed £1 million or so every year into Cardiff?
And for how long can the Scarlets continue to fund their £1 - £1.5 million Loss every year? That's a-lot of cash to find just once in a small place like Llanelli, but every year?

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Dragons in threesome with two Hookers
and thats just to tread water

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Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:47 pm
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