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60 Cap Rule Announced 
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
spinbreath wrote:
wasp wrote:
We are, quite clearly trying to ensure the goose is well fed, and that the "food" can learn to be good food by learning from better food

I disagree. I don't think this comes down to whether or not you're a fan of the regions. I think it's an undeniable fact that rugby in Wales can only survive if it is funded by the vast profits to be made from the international game. You play to your strengths. Make coin where it is easily collected and pump it into the system.


I don't think it's as simple as regions against the Welsh team. There is no simple answer here.

Clearly the national team relies on the regions (and the Welsh system producing players), ignoring the few players produced outside Wales, the regions produce or at least have a hand in almost all. Invariably the best players (again with a few exceptions) end up playing for Wales. Keeping players like Liam Williams and George North at the Scarlets would make them a much better team than they already are. This would in turn have our best players playing together. In turn bring in more fans and more money...it's not as simple as this although they need to try something.

I completely understand that players cab make the choice, and obviously Gatland wants to pick the best players.

Should this *fupp* up, there is always the option to change it.


Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:40 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:57 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
While it is true that the incompetence and sometimes downright malice of either the WRU, various clubs (at all levels of the game), or even a combination of both have indeed been detrimental to Welsh rugby, there is no point negating that Wales IS hamstrung (no pun intended - rugby and all) by various factors:

(1) Economy. Wales is rivalled only by Portugal and Greece in being the poorest country in Western Europe, which already means that there will be less investment at all levels of rugby - pro, semi-pro and amateur alike - than in other wealthier rugby nations. The notion that Pontypridd, Bridgend, Aberavon or Neath can be as well-financed and competitive as Exeter, Bath, Gloucester or Northampton is Alice in Wonderland territory.

(2) Population size. Wales has a population of just three million, which actually makes it the smallest of all Tier One nations. As far as player numbers are concerned, last I read Wales has around 50,000 adult male players, compared to around 150,000 in both Ireland and NZ, 500,000+ in England and SA etc. etc. The fact that, at both international and to a certain extent club level, it can usually compete against teams from bigger and often wealthier countries is to be commended, not dismissed.

(3) Age composition. Wales is one of the oldest populations in the Western world, which means there are fewer people of rugby-playing age per capita around.

(4) Ethnic composition. This is perhaps an odd and rather contentious one, but nevertheless when you consider the vast Maori and PI populations in NZ and Australia - who tend to be naturally bulky and strong without needing to go to the gym - as well as the large Black and mixed-race populations in England, France and SA - who tend to be more naturally athletic - this also arguably puts Wales at a disadvantage as, apart from some inner-city areas of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, the level of ethnic diversity here is still relatively low. (Before you say "then why don't Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do better then?" I refer you back to points 1 and 2).


Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:00 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.


His young lady is quite special I understand. Also he is going to an environment where he will improve. More than money to this.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:00 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
najbritcol wrote:
While it is true that the incompetence and sometimes downright malice of either the WRU, various clubs (at all levels of the game), or even a combination of both have indeed been detrimental to Welsh rugby, there is no point negating that Wales IS hamstrung (no pun intended - rugby and all) by various factors:

(1) Economy. Wales is rivalled only by Portugal and Greece in being the poorest country in Western Europe, which already means that there will be less investment at all levels of rugby - pro, semi-pro and amateur alike - than in other wealthier rugby nations. The notion that Pontypridd, Bridgend, Aberavon or Neath can be as well-financed and competitive as Exeter, Bath, Gloucester or Northampton is Alice in Wonderland territory.

(2) Population size. Wales has a population of just three million, which actually makes it the smallest of all Tier One nations. As far as player numbers are concerned, last I read Wales has around 50,000 adult male players, compared to around 150,000 in both Ireland and NZ, 500,000+ in England and SA etc. etc. The fact that, at both international and to a certain extent club level, it can usually compete against teams from bigger and often wealthier countries is to be commended, not dismissed.

(3) Age composition. Wales is one of the oldest populations in the Western world, which means there are fewer people of rugby-playing age per capita around.

(4) Ethnic composition. This is perhaps an odd and rather contentious one, but nevertheless when you consider the vast Maori and PI populations in NZ and Australia - who tend to be naturally bulky and strong without needing to go to the gym - as well as the large Black and mixed-race populations in England, France and SA - who tend to be more naturally athletic - this also arguably puts Wales at a disadvantage as, apart from some inner-city areas of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, the level of ethnic diversity here is still relatively low. (Before you say "then why don't Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do better then?" I refer you back to points 1 and 2).


Pls answer my Q above which allows you a particular example, instead of further wriggling and intro of more widespread arguments.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:07 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.


His young lady is quite special I understand. Also he is going to an environment where he will improve. More than money to this.

Of course there is, but I would suggest secure futures and family welfare probably uppermost.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:20 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
While it is true that the incompetence and sometimes downright malice of either the WRU, various clubs (at all levels of the game), or even a combination of both have indeed been detrimental to Welsh rugby, there is no point negating that Wales IS hamstrung (no pun intended - rugby and all) by various factors:

(1) Economy. Wales is rivalled only by Portugal and Greece in being the poorest country in Western Europe, which already means that there will be less investment at all levels of rugby - pro, semi-pro and amateur alike - than in other wealthier rugby nations. The notion that Pontypridd, Bridgend, Aberavon or Neath can be as well-financed and competitive as Exeter, Bath, Gloucester or Northampton is Alice in Wonderland territory.

(2) Population size. Wales has a population of just three million, which actually makes it the smallest of all Tier One nations. As far as player numbers are concerned, last I read Wales has around 50,000 adult male players, compared to around 150,000 in both Ireland and NZ, 500,000+ in England and SA etc. etc. The fact that, at both international and to a certain extent club level, it can usually compete against teams from bigger and often wealthier countries is to be commended, not dismissed.

(3) Age composition. Wales is one of the oldest populations in the Western world, which means there are fewer people of rugby-playing age per capita around.

(4) Ethnic composition. This is perhaps an odd and rather contentious one, but nevertheless when you consider the vast Maori and PI populations in NZ and Australia - who tend to be naturally bulky and strong without needing to go to the gym - as well as the large Black and mixed-race populations in England, France and SA - who tend to be more naturally athletic - this also arguably puts Wales at a disadvantage as, apart from some inner-city areas of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, the level of ethnic diversity here is still relatively low. (Before you say "then why don't Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do better then?" I refer you back to points 1 and 2).


Pls answer my Q above which allows you a particular example, instead of further wriggling and intro of more widespread arguments.


Cardiff seem to have been particularly mismanaged by their board and owners, especially due to the overbearing influence of the Thomas brothers. They have indeed really underachieved (but like I've said before, so too have Ulster, SF, Ospreys, Bath, Gloucester and no doubt others). Having said that, before the big exodus from Welsh rugby began around 2013, they did have a more formidable team, but unfortunately most of those players - Bradley Davies, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Martyn Williams etc. - have either retired, play in England or France or even play in other Welsh regions. Furthermore, they do remain the only Welsh team to have ever won silverware in Europe. (Yes I know it was the Challenge Cup, but it was against a Toulon team who were pretty strong even then, and they got in to the knockout stages by being runners-up in their Heineken Cup pool).


Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:21 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.


His young lady is quite special I understand. Also he is going to an environment where he will improve. More than money to this.

Of course there is, but I would suggest secure futures and family welfare probably uppermost.


Cost of living in London must at least partially negate whatever improved deal he has at Saracens viz-a-viz Scarlets. I also do agree here that being at Saracens would improve him as a player, but the point is that Saracens are a special case and are NOT typical of all English rugby, as I think Northampton can attest...


Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:26 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
najbritcol wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
While it is true that the incompetence and sometimes downright malice of either the WRU, various clubs (at all levels of the game), or even a combination of both have indeed been detrimental to Welsh rugby, there is no point negating that Wales IS hamstrung (no pun intended - rugby and all) by various factors:

(1) Economy. Wales is rivalled only by Portugal and Greece in being the poorest country in Western Europe, which already means that there will be less investment at all levels of rugby - pro, semi-pro and amateur alike - than in other wealthier rugby nations. The notion that Pontypridd, Bridgend, Aberavon or Neath can be as well-financed and competitive as Exeter, Bath, Gloucester or Northampton is Alice in Wonderland territory.

(2) Population size. Wales has a population of just three million, which actually makes it the smallest of all Tier One nations. As far as player numbers are concerned, last I read Wales has around 50,000 adult male players, compared to around 150,000 in both Ireland and NZ, 500,000+ in England and SA etc. etc. The fact that, at both international and to a certain extent club level, it can usually compete against teams from bigger and often wealthier countries is to be commended, not dismissed.

(3) Age composition. Wales is one of the oldest populations in the Western world, which means there are fewer people of rugby-playing age per capita around.

(4) Ethnic composition. This is perhaps an odd and rather contentious one, but nevertheless when you consider the vast Maori and PI populations in NZ and Australia - who tend to be naturally bulky and strong without needing to go to the gym - as well as the large Black and mixed-race populations in England, France and SA - who tend to be more naturally athletic - this also arguably puts Wales at a disadvantage as, apart from some inner-city areas of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, the level of ethnic diversity here is still relatively low. (Before you say "then why don't Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do better then?" I refer you back to points 1 and 2).


Pls answer my Q above which allows you a particular example, instead of further wriggling and intro of more widespread arguments.


Cardiff seem to have been particularly mismanaged by their board and owners, especially due to the overbearing influence of the Thomas brothers. They have indeed really underachieved (but like I've said before, so too have Ulster, SF, Ospreys, Bath, Gloucester and no doubt others). Having said that, before the big exodus from Welsh rugby began around 2013, they did have a more formidable team, but unfortunately most of those players - Bradley Davies, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Martyn Williams etc. - have either retired, play in England or France or even play in other Welsh regions. Furthermore, they do remain the only Welsh team to have ever won silverware in Europe. (Yes I know it was the Challenge Cup, but it was against a Toulon team who were pretty strong even then, and they got in to the knockout stages by being runners-up in their Heineken Cup pool).


Thks, but wadr that's weak.

Their position was one of strength, their opportunity contradicts a lot of the inhibitors you have cited in your argument.

Same goes for the likes of Swansea and Newport too.

Naj, your arguments fluctuate between timeframes and often plunges into narrow specifics and examples of citing other Clubs and ignoring others.

I don't see any future for continuing this debate with you.

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Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:30 pm
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
I think the new rule is a much better idea than the wildcard shambles, but I am deeply sceptical about both the retrospective nature of its application and Gatland's involvement in what can only be described as the bullying of an individual player (Webb) by the Union on behalf of the region.

Gatland stated today in interview that Webb hasn't signed a contract, only a pre-contract agreement, and that Webb & Derwyn Jones (Rhys's agent) knew about the new law before negotiations with Toulon were concluded. It now seems that neither statement is true.

I can come up with no other hypothesis that explains both why the WRU chose to apply the rules in such a way that Webb (and only Webb) gets caught and for Gatland to try and induce Webb to break his contract in an apparent attempt to strongarm the player other than the Union is now the dog being wagged by the regional tail.


Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:05 am
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Im still struggling to see how a country with a very small player base is seeking to force all its top players to play at a lower level every single week than they might otherwise get. The whole thing seems counter-productive.

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:13 am
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.


His young lady is quite special I understand. Also he is going to an environment where he will improve. More than money to this.

Of course there is, but I would suggest secure futures and family welfare probably uppermost.


What does that mean in English?

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:18 am
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
najbritcol wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
Langland Exile wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
simondavis wrote:
Tel....According to Gatland, Liam Williams went to Saracens for less money. says so in the guardian

No accounting for hormones, didn't know that he went for less money but it emphasises the point that other drivers will apply rather than just x cap rules and similar
I believe that in the modern pro game some drivers transcend Intl representation.


His young lady is quite special I understand. Also he is going to an environment where he will improve. More than money to this.

Of course there is, but I would suggest secure futures and family welfare probably uppermost.


Cost of living in London must at least partially negate whatever improved deal he has at Saracens viz-a-viz Scarlets. I also do agree here that being at Saracens would improve him as a player, but the point is that Saracens are a special case and are NOT typical of all English rugby, as I think Northampton can attest...


You do realize he took LESS money to go Saracens? It helps to get one statement factually correct from time to time. ;)

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:20 am
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
Tony Panties wrote:
najbritcol wrote:
While it is true that the incompetence and sometimes downright malice of either the WRU, various clubs (at all levels of the game), or even a combination of both have indeed been detrimental to Welsh rugby, there is no point negating that Wales IS hamstrung (no pun intended - rugby and all) by various factors:

(1) Economy. Wales is rivalled only by Portugal and Greece in being the poorest country in Western Europe, which already means that there will be less investment at all levels of rugby - pro, semi-pro and amateur alike - than in other wealthier rugby nations. The notion that Pontypridd, Bridgend, Aberavon or Neath can be as well-financed and competitive as Exeter, Bath, Gloucester or Northampton is Alice in Wonderland territory.

(2) Population size. Wales has a population of just three million, which actually makes it the smallest of all Tier One nations. As far as player numbers are concerned, last I read Wales has around 50,000 adult male players, compared to around 150,000 in both Ireland and NZ, 500,000+ in England and SA etc. etc. The fact that, at both international and to a certain extent club level, it can usually compete against teams from bigger and often wealthier countries is to be commended, not dismissed.

(3) Age composition. Wales is one of the oldest populations in the Western world, which means there are fewer people of rugby-playing age per capita around.

(4) Ethnic composition. This is perhaps an odd and rather contentious one, but nevertheless when you consider the vast Maori and PI populations in NZ and Australia - who tend to be naturally bulky and strong without needing to go to the gym - as well as the large Black and mixed-race populations in England, France and SA - who tend to be more naturally athletic - this also arguably puts Wales at a disadvantage as, apart from some inner-city areas of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea, the level of ethnic diversity here is still relatively low. (Before you say "then why don't Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do better then?" I refer you back to points 1 and 2).


Pls answer my Q above which allows you a particular example, instead of further wriggling and intro of more widespread arguments.


Cardiff seem to have been particularly mismanaged by their board and owners, especially due to the overbearing influence of the Thomas brothers. They have indeed really underachieved (but like I've said before, so too have Ulster, SF, Ospreys, Bath, Gloucester and no doubt others). Having said that, before the big exodus from Welsh rugby began around 2013, they did have a more formidable team, but unfortunately most of those players - Bradley Davies, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Martyn Williams etc. - have either retired, play in England or France or even play in other Welsh regions. Furthermore, they do remain the only Welsh team to have ever won silverware in Europe. (Yes I know it was the Challenge Cup, but it was against a Toulon team who were pretty strong even then, and they got in to the knockout stages by being runners-up in their Heineken Cup pool).


Thks, but wadr that's weak.

Their position was one of strength, their opportunity contradicts a lot of the inhibitors you have cited in your argument.

Same goes for the likes of Swansea and Newport too.

Naj, your arguments fluctuate between timeframes and often plunges into narrow specifics and examples of citing other Clubs and ignoring others.

I don't see any future for continuing this debate with you.


The senior master has said you don't deserve his time, Naj....bad luck :(

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:22 am
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Post Re: 60 Cap Rule Announced
Cymru am byth wrote:
spinbreath wrote:
wasp wrote:
We are, quite clearly trying to ensure the goose is well fed, and that the "food" can learn to be good food by learning from better food

I disagree. I don't think this comes down to whether or not you're a fan of the regions. I think it's an undeniable fact that rugby in Wales can only survive if it is funded by the vast profits to be made from the international game. You play to your strengths. Make coin where it is easily collected and pump it into the system.


I don't think it's as simple as regions against the Welsh team. There is no simple answer here.

Clearly the national team relies on the regions (and the Welsh system producing players), ignoring the few players produced outside Wales, the regions produce or at least have a hand in almost all. Invariably the best players (again with a few exceptions) end up playing for Wales. Keeping players like Liam Williams and George North at the Scarlets would make them a much better team than they already are. This would in turn have our best players playing together. In turn bring in more fans and more money...it's not as simple as this although they need to try something.

I completely understand that players cab make the choice, and obviously Gatland wants to pick the best players.

Should this *fupp* up, there is always the option to change it.

You're opening a can of worms with George North, as he was one of the players who left Wales as a result of the regions attempting to offload all their internationals in a bid to force the union's hand. The goalposts have changed, as they often do, and the regions now want quality players on the cheap by blackmailing them to stay in Wales, getting the union to pay two thirds of their wages and bitching about how they don't get enough cash for player release.
The simple fact is, apart from the Scarlets, the regions are not attractive propositions to potential players. They can't afford to pay them, and they are bottom feeders in terms of on the field success. How else are they going to get anyone to play for them?

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:52 am
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